I will listen to the podcast in due course. However I must say that the dreadful events of the past couple of days have made me despair of a just, democratic and peaceful resolution of the Israel-Palestine conflict being achieved in my lifetime.
My personal views on the Israel-Palestine conflict fall within the "moderate pro-Palestinian" box in the typology developed by Philip Mendes and Nick Dyrenfurth in their book "Boycotting Israel is Wrong: The progressive path to peace between Palestinians and Israelis". That said, I know of no remotely progressive, democratic or humane political ideology that could possibly regard participants in a dance festival as a legitimate military target. Hamas must be called out on this and other atrocities it has committed in the past couple of days, and on the religious fundamentalist, ultra-nationalist, fascist-adjacent ideology that drives Hamas to commit such crimes. Unfortunately, too many of my friends - decent, good-hearted people of the Left - have responded to the recent events by rallying to what they think of as the "Palestinian cause". They could do worse than to read this statement by a UK Trotskyist group.
Paul, as always, your instincts are spot on. (Save for the fact you support the wrong political party. 😉) So interesting about the UK Trotskyist group. Seems the UK Marxists are more reality-based than their equivalents here. They're also good on the trans issue.
re Penny Wong neither you nor Michael said so I will. I understand her partner is Palestinian so it would not surprise me she feels conflicted over the Israel-Palestine situation and ends up by resorting to mouthing the same-old, but rather threadbare platitudes
The attacks on innocent people in Israel is appalling. I condemn them in the strongest terms. The state of Israel must protect its People from these vile abuses.
The attack is totally unacceptable. That we would think dismissing the circumstance that led to such an attack is okay is also unacceptable. Recognising the abuses against the Palestinians and their ongoing suffering is crucial - without it we will continue to make the same mistakes with even worse consequences. Right now our hearts must be with the people of Israel and to do what we can to protect them. In time, we must be informed by the context that has allowed / caused such terrible abuses - so as to direct our efforts to bring an end to this vicious circle of violence.
Seems to me some people easily go to extremes of opinion - driven by what I'm not sure - but most likely fundamental human characteristics like fear and wanting to belong. But these extremes cause the truth to be distorted (creating lies) and in so doing we lose our way and fail fairness, fail humanity - and thus continue to fuel abuses.
For mine this talk of being a Jew or being part of some other group has little to do with the fundamental issues - just as the situation in Ukraine is not about people being Ukrainian or of some other group.
We must recognise the truth in each situation and ensure people are treated fairly and with dignity - otherwise we invite abuse and suffering
Call me names etc but what abuses do you mean, please, Frnando? I'm not being rightwing or blinded by my Jewish heritage so some specific examples would enlighten. I read about what is happening in Ukraine and watch the news on TV. You can see the callous and deliberate attack on civilians perpetrated by Russian forces and Putin. A quick glance at televise news reports gives graphic examples
Here are some aspects of the situation viz a viz Israel that both trouble and puzzle me deeply:
The West Bank !! Its administration legally is hard to get your head around with its 3 divisions viz areas A, B and C. How are Palestinians being oppressed by Israel? It does strike me, however, that settlements there are wrong. even though the West Bank aka Judea and Samaria are the heart of biblical Israel
How exactly is Israel and apartheid state? I grew up in South Africa and I saw what abuse was and what it looked like on a daily basis with examples
Why are there still refugee camps eg as in Jenin? Whose responsibility are they? Surely the Palestinian Authority and not Israel? I have sympathy for them to the extent that it must be difficult to live so close to where you once lived and yet not be able to go back but at some point you have to get up, dust yourself down and get on with your life as it is. My family were refugees in WW1 and that is what they did and how they survived those terrible years
Lastly it was the 1947 UN resolution that led to the founding of Israel. I'm dismayed at the number of people who forget that and it's about time, public discussion stops questioning the right of Israel to exist. Also what is interesting about this resolution was how it carved up mandate Palestine into 2 areas, one where Jews would live and the other where the then Arabs
would live. Have a look at the map of the division of land and you will quickly see that it was not likely to work. The Jews accepted the carve-up but the Arabs did not and they chose to go to war. I have often wondered, that had they accepted the partition, they might well have achieved Palestine from the Jordan to the sea
I will listen to the podcast in due course. However I must say that the dreadful events of the past couple of days have made me despair of a just, democratic and peaceful resolution of the Israel-Palestine conflict being achieved in my lifetime.
My personal views on the Israel-Palestine conflict fall within the "moderate pro-Palestinian" box in the typology developed by Philip Mendes and Nick Dyrenfurth in their book "Boycotting Israel is Wrong: The progressive path to peace between Palestinians and Israelis". That said, I know of no remotely progressive, democratic or humane political ideology that could possibly regard participants in a dance festival as a legitimate military target. Hamas must be called out on this and other atrocities it has committed in the past couple of days, and on the religious fundamentalist, ultra-nationalist, fascist-adjacent ideology that drives Hamas to commit such crimes. Unfortunately, too many of my friends - decent, good-hearted people of the Left - have responded to the recent events by rallying to what they think of as the "Palestinian cause". They could do worse than to read this statement by a UK Trotskyist group.
https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2023-10-08/war-israelpalestine
To be clear, the Workers Liberty position is not necessarily or exactly my position, but it is one that "pro-Palestinian" leftists should consider.
Paul, as always, your instincts are spot on. (Save for the fact you support the wrong political party. 😉) So interesting about the UK Trotskyist group. Seems the UK Marxists are more reality-based than their equivalents here. They're also good on the trans issue.
re Penny Wong neither you nor Michael said so I will. I understand her partner is Palestinian so it would not surprise me she feels conflicted over the Israel-Palestine situation and ends up by resorting to mouthing the same-old, but rather threadbare platitudes
The attacks on innocent people in Israel is appalling. I condemn them in the strongest terms. The state of Israel must protect its People from these vile abuses.
The attack is totally unacceptable. That we would think dismissing the circumstance that led to such an attack is okay is also unacceptable. Recognising the abuses against the Palestinians and their ongoing suffering is crucial - without it we will continue to make the same mistakes with even worse consequences. Right now our hearts must be with the people of Israel and to do what we can to protect them. In time, we must be informed by the context that has allowed / caused such terrible abuses - so as to direct our efforts to bring an end to this vicious circle of violence.
Seems to me some people easily go to extremes of opinion - driven by what I'm not sure - but most likely fundamental human characteristics like fear and wanting to belong. But these extremes cause the truth to be distorted (creating lies) and in so doing we lose our way and fail fairness, fail humanity - and thus continue to fuel abuses.
For mine this talk of being a Jew or being part of some other group has little to do with the fundamental issues - just as the situation in Ukraine is not about people being Ukrainian or of some other group.
We must recognise the truth in each situation and ensure people are treated fairly and with dignity - otherwise we invite abuse and suffering
Call me names etc but what abuses do you mean, please, Frnando? I'm not being rightwing or blinded by my Jewish heritage so some specific examples would enlighten. I read about what is happening in Ukraine and watch the news on TV. You can see the callous and deliberate attack on civilians perpetrated by Russian forces and Putin. A quick glance at televise news reports gives graphic examples
Here are some aspects of the situation viz a viz Israel that both trouble and puzzle me deeply:
The West Bank !! Its administration legally is hard to get your head around with its 3 divisions viz areas A, B and C. How are Palestinians being oppressed by Israel? It does strike me, however, that settlements there are wrong. even though the West Bank aka Judea and Samaria are the heart of biblical Israel
How exactly is Israel and apartheid state? I grew up in South Africa and I saw what abuse was and what it looked like on a daily basis with examples
Why are there still refugee camps eg as in Jenin? Whose responsibility are they? Surely the Palestinian Authority and not Israel? I have sympathy for them to the extent that it must be difficult to live so close to where you once lived and yet not be able to go back but at some point you have to get up, dust yourself down and get on with your life as it is. My family were refugees in WW1 and that is what they did and how they survived those terrible years
Lastly it was the 1947 UN resolution that led to the founding of Israel. I'm dismayed at the number of people who forget that and it's about time, public discussion stops questioning the right of Israel to exist. Also what is interesting about this resolution was how it carved up mandate Palestine into 2 areas, one where Jews would live and the other where the then Arabs
would live. Have a look at the map of the division of land and you will quickly see that it was not likely to work. The Jews accepted the carve-up but the Arabs did not and they chose to go to war. I have often wondered, that had they accepted the partition, they might well have achieved Palestine from the Jordan to the sea
Are you serious? Are you suggesting there are no abuses? If you are then there's very little point going on with this conversation.
Great discussion. I can't wait to read Michael Gawenda's book. Thank you
it's a great read. I cant put it down so get it